DonnaAlbino83 started the chat
DonnaAlbino83: Welcome! Please log in using your full name and year of graduation.
MaryMcClintock78 joined the chat 30 seconds ago
DonnaAlbino83: Hi Mary!
ShannonWeber09 joined the chat 10 seconds ago
DonnaAlbino83: Hi Shannon! How's your vacation going so far?
ShannonWeber09: Hello Donna and Mary! It's great to see you in here, Mary Thanks again for your insight at my talk.
EvelynWright94 joined the chat
ShannonWeber09: It is going very well! I just got in to Sacramento yesterday afternoon. Just trying to catch up on work stuff now that my conference is over!
DonnaAlbino83: I think Mary logged off - hope she logs back in. Hi Evelyn!
EvelynWright94: Hi Donna!
ShannonWeber09: Hi Evelyn! Thanks for your interest!
DonnaAlbino83: Shannon, did you get good feedback after the talk? People stop to ask questions, make comments, before leaving?
ShannonWeber09: Mary gave me excellent feedback and expanded on what the campus climate was like when she was there.
ShannonWeber09: Other current students were just very happy and a few gave me a hug, which was incredibly cute
DonnaAlbino83: She spoke at the 2007 conference - it's on the decades recording I sent to you via Dropbox.
DonnaAlbino83: That *is* really cute.
ShannonWeber09: Oh then perhaps I heard her from before! Excellent
DonnaAlbino83: I had an insight listening to your presentation this morning - I'll bet Tale of the Griffin was Junior Show.
ShannonWeber09: And yes, it was adorable!
ShannonWeber09: Oh wowww
ShannonWeber09: That would be SO interesting
ShannonWeber09: especially given how queer J-Show has gotten
ShannonWeber09: It would be interesting to find out when the class mascots started and if they existed then,
DonnaAlbino83: Wish I had the right yearbook to check it out.
ShannonWeber09: if the class that put it on were griffins
DonnaAlbino83: I think that answer is online - I'll check.
ShannonWeber09: Fantastic
DonnaAlbino83: Class of 1909! https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hatlas/traditions/symbolscolors.htm
MaryMcClintock78 joined the chat
ShannonWeber09: So the class of '09 were either green griffins or yellow sphinxes
DonnaAlbino83: Hi Mary glad to see you back again!
ShannonWeber09: I am trying to go through and count it out right now lol
ShannonWeber09: Hello again Mary!
MaryMcClintock78: howdy. . .I'm new to this chat thing, not sure how much I'll "chat"
DonnaAlbino83: They were griffins
ShannonWeber09: Griffins! Yes, you beat me, clearly
ShannonWeber09: No problem, Mary - just great to have your presence!
MaryMcClintock78: so, are you going to give the presentation in this chat mode? or?
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ShannonWeber09: So if the class of '09 performed it in '08, they were definitely juniors and thus it must have been the precursor to J-Show! Which makes it even more significant as a historical trajectory
DonnaAlbino83: Shannon and I haven't rehearsed at all what we were going to do with this chat ... Shannon, any suggestions for what to do? Did you have stories you couldn't cover in your talk on Fri that you'd like to share here? Or did you want to just re-present a sampling of what you said on Fri?
DonnaAlbino83: I had a few bits of ephemera that I'd love to share that didn't make it into the talk.
ShannonWeber09: I would like to present a sampling of what I said. I will also try to get the actual talk up on YouTube for people and we can send that out ASAP after the chat. Donna, that sounds perfect
MaryMcClintock78: sounds good. . .for me, it was interesting to hear your breakdown of the history into 3 time periods. I've been thinking a lot about the context of larger society during those three time periods.
DonnaAlbino83: The talk was too large for our website to handle - I will put it into my website and put a link to it on our MHLP website
ShannonWeber09: Excellent, Mary! Yes, it's interesting for me as a student and scholar of LGBTQ American history to think about how MHC corresponds to the larger context
ShannonWeber09: that sounds great, Donna
DonnaAlbino83: Remind me what the years were in the three sections - 1837-1900? 1900-1950? 1950-present?
ShannonWeber09: Basically, Donna. I had it more at 1837-early 20th century [some of the sexological ideas seemed to seep into the women's colleges at a slower rate than the rest of society],
ShannonWeber09: then early 20th century - at least the '60s, but I would say more like mid-'70s
ShannonWeber09: and then mid-late '70s-present
ShannonWeber09: With the campus becoming a lot more queer-positive after the late '90s
ShannonWeber09: which I correlate with the establishment of the Marks House in '99
DonnaAlbino83: Great. I have three bits of ephemera that I'd love to share in the part-one of the talk. It's now 8pm, so feel free to start!
EvelynWright94: Gosh, is the campus queer positive now?
ShannonWeber09: Evelyn, I would say most definitely so
EvelynWright94: (I really haven't been back hardly.)
EvelynWright94: That's good to hear.
ShannonWeber09: It was when I was there from '05-'09, and definitely now as well. I personally experienced it as a queer utopia, though I of course can't speak for everyone
MaryMcClintock78: If you think of the first period as the "while it was still okay to be womenlovingwomen," then the time when the sex/medical stuff made it "not okay", then the shift to lesbians being out in the mid-70s.
ShannonWeber09: Yes
ShannonWeber09: Ok, so! Let me go through the general chronology I discussed last Friday
MaryMcClintock78: Liliian Faderman's book To Believe in Women was my first exposure to that earlier "it was okay" time. . .and she talks about the shifts toward more homophobia. . .
MaryMcClintock78: go for it Shannon!
ShannonWeber09: First, thanks for coming to the live chat, all! I'm excited to be here. I adore Lillian Faderman's work, Mary! She inspired me so much to pursue LGBTQ studies. I first read her at MHC - Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers
CGagliardi02 joined the chat
DonnaAlbino83: And her "Surpassing the Love of Men" with its chapter on Mary Woolley and Jeannette Marks!
DonnaAlbino83: Hi Camille!
ShannonWeber09: So I would like to highlight how important it is to identify the history of same-sex love and desire at MHC as a very important foundation for the College in terms of the women who led it in the early years and the importance it has had on campus for students from its founding to the present
ShannonWeber09: Welcome, Camille!
CGagliardi02: Actually, this is Christina
CGagliardi02: another queer Gagliardi
DonnaAlbino83: Whoops, sorry - too many CGagliardis! The year should have clued me in.
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ShannonWeber09: Well welcome, Christina! Haha It was very important for me to be a part of the 175th Anniversary Celebration with this talk in order to place same-sex love and desire squarely within the important parameters of College history
ShannonWeber09: and as I mentioned last Friday, the Alum Association gave me a fellowship to pursue my dissertation research on the experiences of LGBTQ students at MHC and Smith, which tells me that there is a certain level of willingness that I had been wondering about
ShannonWeber09: So those are excellent developments in themselves. Also, I met with Lynn Pasquerella last week and talked to her about both queer students as well as trans students on campus and her response was quite favorable.
ShannonWeber09: Which I can elaborate on later if people want
DonnaAlbino83: I would!
ShannonWeber09: Definitely, Donna!
ShannonWeber09: So. A central aim of my talk was to discuss how people have connected women's colleges with lesbianism, ShannonWeber09: and to discuss the way that MHC's history is filled with same-sex love and desire, and that our primary response should not be to "play down" those connections
ShannonWeber09: but rather to bring them out and honor and value them as crucially important
ShannonWeber09: Same-sex love and desire between women has a global history as well,
ShannonWeber09: as Leila Rupp (also my dissertation advisor) has researched in her recent book Sapphistries
ShannonWeber09: Sex-segregated spaces have been the sites for a flourishing of love and desire between women, from girls' boarding schools in England and Japan to medieval nunneries
ShannonWeber09: The connection between women's colleges, specifically the Seven Sisters, can be seen even in modern popular culture
ShannonWeber09: as seen in a 2003 episode of The Simpsons called "I'm Spelling as Fast as I Can"
ShannonWeber09: Has anyone heard of this? Where Lisa is visited by the "muses" of the Seven Sisters?
CGagliardi02: I vaguely remember seeing it
DonnaAlbino83: Oh yes, I know that one!
ShannonWeber09: Haha, yes. This link might still have the video for it: http://gracethespot.com/?p=140
ShannonWeber09: If you haven't seen it. If you can't see that video, I can find it elsewhere. I had some images of it in my PowerPoint
ShannonWeber09: So, as Mary mentioned earlier, I divided my talk into three time periods
ShannonWeber09: to historicize the way that same-sex desire and love between women on campus has corresponded with larger socio-political contexts
DonnaAlbino83: Video is still at that link.
ShannonWeber09: In the first period, from the College's founding to the early 20th century, women's intimate relationships with one another were often deemed innocent and even beneficial
ShannonWeber09: and were often seen within a friendship of "romantic friendship."
ShannonWeber09: I noted that women during this point in time that women were not yet viewed as sexual beings, unlike men, and so the censures that men who had sex with men often faced was not faced by women to nearly the same extent
ShannonWeber09: It is also important to add that women were not in the public sphere to the same extent that men were, so we see men being able to pursue sex with one another in various locations that women didn't have access to
ShannonWeber09: which also is part of the history of gay male public sexual culture versus the lack thereof in lesbian culture ShannonWeber09: But to get back to romantic friendship, the way that this played out on campus was that there are various types of evidence that point towards women having wild crushes on one another
DonnaAlbino83: The young women crushing on each other was also seen as a better alternative than getting tangled up with a young man
ShannonWeber09: and it being seen as a "normal", everyday campus occurence
ShannonWeber09: One example that Helen Lefkowitz Horowitz identifies in her book Alma Mater is that,
ShannonWeber09: when MHC was first founded, administrators made sure to consistently rotate student rooming arrangements
ShannonWeber09: I believe every two weeks
ShannonWeber09: so that students wouldn't get too "attached" to each other
ShannonWeber09: and thus neglect their studies
ShannonWeber09: So we see that even at the very beginning, it was evident to the administration that a culture of rampant intra-student crushes was a serious issue.
ShannonWeber09: Some of the names for desire between women were called "raves,"
ShannonWeber09: "crushes,"
ShannonWeber09: "mashing,"
ShannonWeber09: "smashing,"
ShannonWeber09: "spoons,"
ShannonWeber09: and so son
ShannonWeber09: on*
ShannonWeber09: An incredibly interesting place where see the discussion of crushes between students can be seen in Christina Catrevas' 1910 novel That Freshman
ShannonWeber09: which was set at MHC. Catrevas was an alum of MHC
KristiFreedman14 joined the chat
ShannonWeber09: and although it was indeed a novel, it was based on the campus culture of the time and included an actual song from the MHC songbooks
ShannonWeber09: Welcome, Kristi!
KristiFreedman14: Thank you!
ShannonWeber09: The song was called "I Know a Nice Place"
ShannonWeber09: and was first seen in the MHC songbooks in 1899
ShannonWeber09: This is the quote from the Catrevas book I included:
ShannonWeber09: "There is a quaint old song in the Holyoke song books which runs like this: [']Here freshmen fall madly in love twice a week, With a Senior, you know, with a Senior, you know! They load her with flowers, but never dare speak, At Holyoke, Mount Holyoke, you know![']"
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DonnaAlbino83: "That Freshman" was written by a 1902 alum about the campus as she knew it in that era. It is very accurate in many details beyond the girl-girl crushes.
ShannonWeber09: So Catrevas uses this quote, which was written by MHC student Margaret Steen, class of 1901,
ShannonWeber09: Yes, including I presume the racism on campus, as the novel is also very casually racist
Clara 2012 joined the chat
DonnaAlbino83: May I cut in and share a bit from the novel?
ShannonWeber09: Please do!
DonnaAlbino83: This is a scene where our freshman, Helen Thompson ("Tommy"), wants to send flowers to Helen Crosby, her senior crush.
DonnaAlbino83: She is going to the town florist to arrange it.
DonnaAlbino83: Tommy hoped to find Mr. Gates in his hot-house, putting his flowers to bed. But alas! everything was closed up and dark, and a pang of disappointment seized her. For a moment she stood uncertain, then after a little hesitation she boldly strode forward toward the house and rang the bell.
DonnaAlbino83: "Is Mr. Gates in?"
DonnaAlbino83: "Yes, won't you come in?" said the little old wife, who opened the door.
DonnaAlbino83: "Oh -- I only wanted --"
DonnaAlbino83: "Some flowers?" asked Mr. Gates himself, who now appeared, pipe in hand, and invited her to a chair.
DonnaAlbino83: "Ye-es; for Miss Crosby, you know."
DonnaAlbino83: "Uh-huh! They've sent her lots of flowers, and the Sophomore and Junior classes sent her great big bunches of them." His eyes were twinkling.
DonnaAlbino83: "Did they? I -- I suppose -- you see, Miss Crosby is a friend of mine --"
DonnaAlbino83: Mr. Gates nodded approvingly. He had seen this before; it was good for his trade.
DonnaAlbino83: "But I can't give 'em to you to-night. The office is closed up. I c'n take them aroun' to her early in the mornin'."
DonnaAlbino83: "Oh, will you! I -- I guess that's just as good. Have you any American Beauties?"
DonnaAlbino83: "Lots of them."
DonnaAlbino83: "Then -- could you send -- half a dozen? Buds, you know."
DonnaAlbino83: "All right, miss -- the first thing in the mornin'."
DonnaAlbino83: Tommy paid for her luxury, and gave her card and final directions; and when Mr. Gates closed the door after her, he turned to his wife with a grin.
DonnaAlbino83: "Another Freshman, Mother! But if they didn't do that, they'd be gettin' homesick, or spoilin' their stomicks with fudge an' the like."
DonnaAlbino83: (end of quote)
KristiFreedman14: That's kind of incredible for its time.
DonnaAlbino83: I love this section because it shows that even the townsfolk were aware of the crushing that was going on, and encouraging it, and even profiting from it!
ShannonWeber09: Yes - and speaks so much to how it was both prevalent and seen as "normal"
DonnaAlbino83: And showed that they would rather see the students crushing on each other than eating too many sweets.
ShannonWeber09: I also love this because there is so much current lore on campus about first-years
ShannonWeber09: In terms of first-year crushes on upperclasswomen
ShannonWeber09: Specifically the "Thanksgiving rule"
DonnaAlbino83: May I share another quote?
ShannonWeber09: i.e. you shouldn't try to have sex with a firstie until at least after Thanksgiving to give them time to adjust to campus
ShannonWeber09: And so thinking about it happening that early in time makes the present context the continuation of a historical trend!
ShannonWeber09: Yes, definitely, Donna
DonnaAlbino83: Great! OK, here's the part where Tommy sees Helen for the first time, and gets her crush:
DonnaAlbino83: It was late in the afternoon, and they had all gone to the campus sing on Williston steps. The Seniors own the steps during the final year, and are alone entitled to sit thereon. Woe betide the underclassman who dares sit there even for a moment! And on this Freshman Sunday, on the first of a series of sings till the cool fall should set in, the Seniors were sitting on the steps as a class, leading the rest of the college in singing favorite hymns, proud of their distinction and much admired of the crowds of friends on the green lawns around them. During one of the hymns Helen poked Fanny's arm.
DonnaAlbino83: "Who is that little girl -- that little dark girl next to Miss Haskell -- on this side?"
DonnaAlbino83: "I don't know," said Fanny, looking off her hymn book. "That girl with the soft, curly hair?"
DonnaAlbino83: "Helen Crosby," whispered Molly Walsh. "She's great!"
DonnaAlbino83: Helen did not take her eyes off her new-found star. She sang the hymns, groping listlessly for the words after Fanny, but that "sing" was an inspiration for her as nothing else had been. For Helen had a bad "crush"!
DonnaAlbino83: (end of quote)
DonnaAlbino83: I have one more that I want to search for ...
ShannonWeber09: Catrevas also uses the phrase "freshman fever" when discussing Tommy's crush on Helen.
Clara 2012: I'm glad that Thanksgiving rule is widely known
ShannonWeber09: lol Clara - I know it was a thing at least in '05 when I started
ShannonWeber09: I would love to know when it started
ShannonWeber09: While Donna finds that other quote,
MaryMcClintock78: the Thanksgiving rule definitely didn't exist when I was at MHC from 9/74-5/78!!
ShannonWeber09: Here is the full text of the song "I Know a Nice Place" that is quoted in the novel:
ShannonWeber09: (good to know, Mary!! did it exist in the '90s? anyone know?)
DonnaAlbino83: The Thanksgiving rule didn't exist in the 80s, or at least, not in the early 80s.
ShannonWeber09: (sorry, my PowerPoint is loading)
ShannonWeber09: Also good to know, Donna!
DonnaAlbino83: Found the quote - I'll post it after the song lyrics
ShannonWeber09: Ok!
ShannonWeber09: "I Know A Nice Place," 1901 I know a nice place for young girls to go, Mount Holyoke you know, Mount Holyoke you know, Where life's a gay whirl and things never are slow, Mount Holyoke, Mount Holyoke you know. (Chorus) To breakfast and chapel, Lib, Willy as well, We hurry and scurry at stroke of a bell, Domestic work, lab hours a lecture or so, That's Holyoke, Mt. Holyoke you know. I know a nice place for young girls to feast, Mount Holyoke you know, Mount Holyoke you know,
ShannonWeber09: Our swell five course dinners are only the least At Holyoke, Mt. Holyoke you know. (Chorus) Here Freshmen fall madly in love twice a week, With a Senior you know, with a Senior you know, They load her with flowers but never dare speak At Holyoke, Mt. Holyoke you know. (Chorus) I know a nice place for young girls to work, Mount Holyoke you know, Mount Holyoke you know,
ShannonWeber09: We love it so dearly, we never would shirk At Holyoke, Mt. Holyoke you know. (Chorus) I know a nice place for young girls to play, Mount Holyoke you know, Mount Holyoke you know, We've so much spare time that we throw it away, At Holyoke, Mt. Holyoke you know. (Chorus)
ShannonWeber09: (end of song)
KristiFreedman14: was it written - as most songs then were - by a student at the time?
ShannonWeber09: I specifically thought the parts about "life's a gay whirl" and the part about "feasting" was interesting, in addition to the crushing part. "I know a nice place for young girls to feast ... our swell five course dinners are only the least" - what else were they feasting on?!
ShannonWeber09: I believe it was. Correct, Donna?
DonnaAlbino83: Yes, that song was written by a 1901 student
ShannonWeber09: Another really interesting song came from a play called The Tale of the Griffin
Clara 2012: Wow. A recent gender studies minor I can't believe I've never even heard of the song before
ShannonWeber09: performed in 1908
DonnaAlbino83: OK, final quote from "That Freshman" (and I should say that there are lots of other wonderful quotes - definitely worth getting a copy of the book if you can!)
ShannonWeber09: by the class of 1909
ShannonWeber09: Oh yes!!
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ShannonWeber09: I will hold off Go ahead!
DonnaAlbino83: OK, here Tommy is talking about her crush with her roommate Frances.
DonnaAlbino83: Sunday night after supper, she and Frances Chambley were enumerating their blessings in the latter's room. Helen Crosby had visited Tommy that morning after church; and Frances, too, who was present, had lost her heart to her.
DonnaAlbino83: "You see, 'it never rains but it po-ars,' Tommy," said Frances, " and I almost envy you. First you get into the choir, and then Miss Crosby invites you to the Senior reception, and then she comes to visit you."
DonnaAlbino83: "Oh, Miss Crosby!" sighed Helen. "Don't you think she is a dear, Frances?"
DonnaAlbino83: "I sure do, you lucky girl!"
DonnaAlbino83: "She is so brilliant in everything!"
DonnaAlbino83: "Yes, and they say she'll make the Phi Beta Kappa next spring."
DonnaAlbino83: Pause.
DonnaAlbino83: "I wish we could go and visit her now -- but I suppose that would be highly improper."
DonnaAlbino83: "Ye-es, I suppose so," said Frances, looking at her friend regretfully under curly locks. "But if we could only manage!"
DonnaAlbino83: "I just feel restless -- Frances."
DonnaAlbino83: "Homesick?"
DonnaAlbino83: "No-o-o -- not homesick! But I'd like to -- Let's go down to Rocky anyhow -- and sort of -- walk around -- and see --"
DonnaAlbino83: "Yes -- and maybe --"
DonnaAlbino83: In a jiffy they were in their coats and descending the stairs, and were lost in the darkness of the night. Arm in arm they went down the "chute" to Rockefeller Hall and around the front where they could look up to the suite on the second floor occupied by Helen Crosby and her Junior roommate. They walked out into the lawn, where, at a better angle and out of the patches of light thrown by the open windows, they could see and not be seen.
DonnaAlbino83: The shades were up. Helen Crosby had visitors for whom she was making tea, and ripples of laughter came from her windows.
DonnaAlbino83: "Wouldn't you like to be there, Frances?"
DonnaAlbino83: "Ye-es," from Frances, whose teeth were beginning to chatter from the chill of the evening.
DonnaAlbino83: "Cold?"
DonnaAlbino83: "K-kind of."
DonnaAlbino83: " Well, I d-don't know but I feel so, t-too. But say -- isn't she s-stunning!"
DonnaAlbino83: "Yes -- just see how d-dayenty she is!"
DonnaAlbino83: "But wouldn't you just like to be there?"
DonnaAlbino83: "Noa--I'd j-just as soon be here -- where I can see her."
DonnaAlbino83: "Hu! S-sour grapes!"
DonnaAlbino83: "R-r-really I would. I -- I wouldn't want to be up there with all that crowd!"
DonnaAlbino83: "W-well, y-you aren't. And I d-don't know as I would, either."
DonnaAlbino83: The minutes crawled along, and the silly little girls kept their watch and tried to imagine themselves warm. They saw the visitors go, and were half tempted to go up next. They saw Helen Crosby settle down to writing letters at her desk, and looked on with hungry eyes, shivering in silence.
DonnaAlbino83: It was finally nine o'clock striking on Mary Lyon that roused them to their senses. They took a last loving look and turned for home -- regretfully. Next morning they both had colds.
DonnaAlbino83: (end of quote)
ShannonWeber09: "with hungry eyes" - such detail!
DonnaAlbino83: No kidding! Gotta love it.
DonnaAlbino83: Sorry for the delays - I'm trying to save the transcript of our chat while we're talking
ShannonWeber09: Oh perfect - thanks for the transcript
DonnaAlbino83: So go ahead with the Muriel song and then I've got a letter to share
ShannonWeber09: So The Tale of the Griffin is really interesting, especially because Donna and I were just talking about how it may very well have been the precursor to J-Show
Hknightx92: There is a copy of That Freshman on able books.com for $ 299-
Hknightx92: Abebooks
DonnaAlbino83: I think they had J-show back then - just not sure if this was J-show or not because I don't have the yearbook for that year
ShannonWeber09: and for those of you who have graduated somewhat recently, J-Show is pretty damn queer, so thinking about this early show also containing so much same-sex love/desire is mind-blowing
ShannonWeber09: You know, I have been able to get That Freshman via WorldCat inter-library loan before at my graduate institution ShannonWeber09: I should acquire it again and then make the entire thing into a PDF
Clara 2012: J Show has basically turned into a smooch fest.
ShannonWeber09: and share it with people
DonnaAlbino83: And I have the text of it online if people want to just read it without owning it
ShannonWeber09: Clara, do go on if you have more details
ShannonWeber09: Oh Donna, you have all of it?!
DonnaAlbino83: Yep - that's what I was cutting and pasting into the chat
ShannonWeber09: Good to know! I thought you had saved some of it
Clara 2012: the PDF idea is great
DonnaAlbino83: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~dalbino/books/catrevas/index.html
ShannonWeber09: Ok, so here is the text of the song from 1908
ShannonWeber09: It is called "Love Song" and is written by Clara Searle and Marion Osborne
ShannonWeber09: "There where the sunset's soft colors / Linger'd the last to die, Now do the darkening mountains / Outline a clear silvered sky. Echoes of song all have passed, dear / Into the dreaming night. Down on the lake's rippled waters / Quivers the crescent moon's light. (Chorus) All this dream-world is saying 'I love you.' Softly pleading is whispering, 'Love me, dear, too.' For this I have been waiting / All day through, Waiting just to say, Muriel, / I love you. Since first I met you, my dearie, /Every thought by day, Every dream of the night time / Tells me that love holds its sway. I think of you and you only, / Whate'er I chance to do Tell me that someday it may be / All of my dreams will come true." [end]
DonnaAlbino83: (hums softly) "waiting just to say, Muriel, I love youuuuu"
ShannonWeber09: Clara, the actual book also has some pictures
Clara 2012: oo.
ShannonWeber09: If anyone actually does want a PDF, e-mail me at shannon_weber@umail.ucsb​.edu and I will actually go do it
KristiFreedman14: Well I have to run but it was lovely to be here and read some of these great excerpts and lyrics! thanks all.
ShannonWeber09: It would also be good to do for anyone who wants page numbers, as I will need when I publish it. I am so impressed and how you typed it out in its entirety, Donna!
ShannonWeber09: Thank you, Kristi!!! Have a great night!
DonnaAlbino83: I know, I'm a nut.
ShannonWeber09: When I publish my work, I mean
ShannonWeber09: An amazing Moho nut! The best kind!
DonnaAlbino83: The next thing I'd love to share is a letter from 1877. Here's a link to the envelope.
DonnaAlbino83: http://www.mtholyoke.com/pcsite/letters/images/Cristy01f.jpeg
DonnaAlbino83: Take a look at it ... anyone notice anything funny about it?
Clara 2012: quite a few things.
DonnaAlbino83: Tell me what you see.
Clara 2012: Most letters only need one stamp as far as I know
DonnaAlbino83: True. Also notice all the glue used on the stamps, and that the postmarks don't match up. That envelope didn't go through the mail.
DonnaAlbino83: Someone doctored it up with used stamps to make it look like real mail. Now why would someone do that? My guess is to sneak it into her mailbox and making it look as real as possible
DonnaAlbino83: Someone wanted to fly under the radar
DonnaAlbino83: And since it was written to someone at the Seminary, it was probably written by someone at the Seminary in order to get it into her mailbox
DonnaAlbino83: The letter itself was a total love letter:
DonnaAlbino83: My Dearest "Cris"
Clara 2012: Great undercover work
DonnaAlbino83: Light of my heart, you can not imagine how I am longing for one glance of your dancing black orbs. "I am lonely tonight here without you." "Do you ever think of me"? It seems like years since last we met, and there's a sigh in my heart to behold thee. What shall I say of the cruel fate, (in the shape of Miss Townsend), that parted us; but never mind my dear the time is coming when our destinies will be united and you will have the exquisite delight of [...]ing me till I want no more, which will give you untold happiness. I have not time, my love, to tell you of all that has occurred since I last saw you, for it is nearly time for that bell which warns us to our little beds and nightmares, so I must bid you a fond adieu, hoping that ere many moons shall wax and wane, I may be blessed with one of your most tempting smiles.
DonnaAlbino83: Good night my own one. Yours, 'Daffy down dilly'."
DonnaAlbino83: (end of letter)
DonnaAlbino83: Why oh why must the most important word in the letter be indecipherable??
DonnaAlbino83: Here's a scan of the indecipherable word - any guesses?
DonnaAlbino83: http://www.mtholyoke.com/pcsite/letters/images/Cristy01a.jpeg
DonnaAlbino83: Miss Townsend was a teacher at the Seminary ... I wonder what she saw that made her separate the students.
DonnaAlbino83: "Cris" became a teacher after graduation, but never married. I wonder if she spent her life with "Daffy down dilly."
ShannonWeber09: I want to say that the first letter of the indecipherable word is "l"
ShannonWeber09: (I also just found out through a Google search that The Tale of the Griffin is described as a "musical comedy", thus lending credence to it being J-Show)
ShannonWeber09: I also presented this 1908 postcard in my presentation, which Donna so graciously gave me access to:
ShannonWeber09: "Dear Ruth: Haven't been hazed or even called 'Freshy' What a shame! I am off campus at Mrs. Lyman's famous for her good feeding & motherly ways she's OK. I am head over heals [sic] in love with a soph. Grace MacFarland. My room is the best in the house, I came first & had my choice. There are 8 here ... Write soon. Helen."
DonnaAlbino83: I really want the indecipherable word to be f*cking
ShannonWeber09: LOL I know
MaryMcClintock78: could the indecipherable word be FEEDING me. . .
ShannonWeber09: I think feeding is what I thought when you were asking me before, Donna
DonnaAlbino83: I was thinking it might be "tending" - it's really impossible to say.
DonnaAlbino83: whatever it is, I hope she got it til she wanted no more!
ShannonWeber09: if one could hire a handwriting expert it might be possible
MaryMcClintock78: indeed!!!
DonnaAlbino83: One other letter I'd love to share ... this one from 1909. It was written to a Mount Holyoke professor from a recent alum. The letter writer would have been about 25, and the professor about 34, when this letter was written.
ShannonWeber09: Who here is already aware of the relationship between Mary Woolley and Jeannette Marks?
DonnaAlbino83: Here are some excerpts:
ShannonWeber09: Oo, go on!
DonnaAlbino83: the very first note I ever wrote you was to "your Highness" - and I think I signed myself your devoted servant. The romantic side of me blended with my childish, fairy-tale side to make you the lady worthy of my service.
DonnaAlbino83: [...] It's pleasant to recall them tonight, on St. Valentine's Day; for you know no one could ever love two people as I loved you. And this you laughed at me, I was happy in just being allowed to love you. (I put it all in the past tense because I love you differently now, with the difference that separation makes.) But I sometimes think I must have been a Knight of the Round Table, before I became a twentieth century American girl, for the chivalrous homage that they paid to their ladies fair I'm sure is just what I feel when I see you. And it makes me wonder more and more that you should even trouble to think of me.
DonnaAlbino83: Something like those were the thoughts I had two weeks ago, when you kissed me goodnight, and I left you. It's the kind of thoughts that lovers have when they're apart, at least the kind that a man has of the maiden he serves. Did you know that I knew so much? Do you mind that I tell you this? And tho the way I love you now is the fair, bright way of perfect, equal friendship, which is the noblest way; I shall never forget the loving devotion that my first love to you offered.
Clara 2012: hahahaha @ f*cking
DonnaAlbino83: [...]And when we were together we seemed afraid to go beneath the surface, as is the way with friends. It's so easy to think, and so hard to say. So we take refuge in writing, when we have all to fear that the mood our friend is in when she receives the letter will misinterpret the message we sent.
DonnaAlbino83: [...]This is a strange letter, I realize, as I read it over; but I shall send it because it is a part of me. If it does not please you, do not answer it; forget that it was written. But at least accept the love that it brings you,
DonnaAlbino83: (end of quote)
DonnaAlbino83: It doesn't appear the professor returned her feelings. From what I know about this professor from her other letters, I think she already had her heart tied up with another female professor at the college.
Clara 2012: I wrote a ~15 page paper on Mary Wolley and Jeannette Marks right before I graduated this past May
DonnaAlbino83: Later, I noticed the letter-writer's name in an eBay auction; her first book, a book of poetry and verse, is being offered there. The table of contents was listed, and I noticed that she had a poem in the book dedicated to this professor. Thank goodness for Google books online - I was able to find a copy of the book, and see the poem in full:
Clara 2012: I do have one interesting finding I could share
DonnaAlbino83: Your kindliness, your sympathy, first drew My heart to love you in those careless days; And hero-worship spread its roseate haze About the real, to make the fancied you; Love, hero-worship, and beside these, too, An ardent hope that I might sometime raise Myself to equal you, - to win your praise, To win your love in turn, and as my due Claim equal friendship with you. Now at last That all-ambition I have won, full-sure; And having won it, I shall hold it fast, Welding the links of friendship all-secure, Treasuring dear the memory of the past, Praying our love may through the years endure.
DonnaAlbino83: This poem was written about five years after the letter; looks to me like she was still loving that professor! This was the year she got her graduate degree from another college, so perhaps that was the "all-ambition [she] had won."
DonnaAlbino83: In an intriguing footnote, three years later, this letter-writer married the president of her graduate school, a man 33 years older than she was, and took on an important role at the college herself. I wonder if her "all-ambition" continued to interest her Mount Holyoke professor. I wish there were more letters preserved in this collection, but it was just the one. More room for my imagination to take over.
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DonnaAlbino83: Hi Clara -- sorry for interrupting - please share your finding!
ShannonWeber09: Please do, Clara!
ShannonWeber09: Donna, I really think we should publish something together about all of this
ShannonWeber09: some sort of historical article
Clara 2012: sure thing one second to catch up
Clara 2012: Well I am a freelance writer for The Rainbow Times
Clara 2012: so if you were interested in publishing something I could put you in contact
Clara 2012: (journalism & ethnography major, gender studies minor)
ShannonWeber09: That would be so cool, Clara! I was thinking of an academic journal, but The Rainbow Times would be amazing as well
Clara 2012: Pursue whichever you'd like just shooting out ideas
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ShannonWeber09: Clara, you should e-mail me about this when you get a chance shannon_weber@umail.ucsb​.edu
Clara 2012: Anyways so the one really interesting thing I came across is the following:
Clara 2012: sure I will
Clara 2012: I was going through boxes and boxes of archives and letters
Clara 2012: There was one point when the alum quarterly reached out to the alums and requested ppl to share and fond memories of their time with MW
Clara 2012: most ppl wrote cute stories etc. But I found one incident that seemed really striking and the fact that the alum remembered it so well that she took the time to write a letter to MHC about it.
Clara 2012: Here:
Clara 2012: Miss. Woolley: a Good Sport Just before Christmas, 1922, all the English Lit majors and minors were invited to an evening party in "Attic Peace," Miss. Marks' Haven in the President's House. On the appointed evening we crept timidly up the stairs of the President's House, to be greeted at the top by Miss Marks dressed in black silk and wearing a lace cap, like an old-fashioned school-marm. With her were members of the Lit faculty dressed as children: Mr. Burgevin in knee pants, Miss "Dotty" Foster and Miss D'Evelyn in short youthful dresses. Miss Marks began conducting an old fashioned school session, but seemed to be stalling, for some reason. Then we heard firm steps coming up the stairs, and soon a stocky figure dressed in a short white dress and wearing a white panama hat trimmed with a wide red band entered - and we recognized it was Miss Woolley! "Well, Mamie Woolens! You are late," greeted Miss Marks., and led her to a chair. "Sit there. Now we'll c[o]ntinue our program." After a few minutes, Miss Woolley waved a hand in the time-honored gesture of a pupil who wanted to leave the room. "No, Mamie," snapped Miss Marks. "You may not go out." But "Mamie" persisted, half rising from her chair[.] "No, Mamie," barked Miss Marks. She went over to "Mamie" and shoved her forcefully back into her chair. "I said you may not go." Then Miss Woolley, in a stifled voice, said, "I tell you I've got to go back. The Board of Admissions is waiting for me downstairs." And back down she went.
Clara 2012: (i had transcribed this for my paper)
DonnaAlbino83: Miss Marks so totally was the alpha female in that relationship.
Clara 2012: So this very strange incident happened.... I went back and looked through MW's calendars (the archive has all of her notebooks for the academic calendar years!) and I actually found a the day that this happened in 1922!
Clara 2012: There was a meeting with the board of admissions on Dec 19, 1922
Clara 2012: Despite the three folders worth of Woolley recollections located in the archives from alums this entry is a one of a kind. No others allude to the intense and secretive relationship between the President and her former pupil.
MaryMcClintock78: great detective work, Clara!
Clara 2012: Thanks It was for a class with Martha Ackmann if anyone had her as a professor
MaryMcClintock78: I didn't have Martha as a professor, but I've done freelance research work for her in the MHC archives and for her two books.
MaryMcClintock78: she's a great historian!
Clara 2012: Definitely! I really enjoyed my time with her, unfortunately we only met my last semester at the school.
ShannonWeber09: Wow... that sounds... am I allowed to say kinky? lol.... MW was dressed up like a little girl and JM was acting out a school lesson? Sooo... interesting
ShannonWeber09: I am actually surprised that they published that letter
Clara 2012: I'm not sure if they put it in the quarterly itself, I found the physical letter in the archives
MaryMcClintock78: what year was the call for memories of MW?
ShannonWeber09: Ohhhh I see
Clara 2012: 1972
Clara 2012: they requested memories
MaryMcClintock78: and, my guess is that they would have seen it as "playful" not kinky. . .
Clara 2012: The letter was written on a typewriter by Madeline Rogers of 1923
MaryMcClintock78: so, that alum remembered it 50 years later! wow!
ShannonWeber09: Wow
DonnaAlbino83: The book "Miss Marks and Miss Woolley," written in the 1970s, has other memories of the two of them. Some were sweet, some not so sweet
DonnaAlbino83: And that book is much more affordable when found through abebooks.com than "That Freshman."
DonnaAlbino83: Can I share a photo?
ShannonWeber09: Yes!
Clara 2012: Sure
DonnaAlbino83: http://www.mtholyoke.com/pcsite/photos/images4/Gordon01.jpeg
DonnaAlbino83: What do you see?
MaryMcClintock78: are they holding hands behind her back?
DonnaAlbino83: I guess we won't know the answer to that. But what do you see, beyond just three women in a standard studio pose?
DonnaAlbino83: OK, most people would guess mom and two daughters. But not quite.
DonnaAlbino83: The woman on the far right is Frances Willard. Here's a short bio I lifted from the web:
DonnaAlbino83: American temperance leader and reformer, well-known lecturer, writer, and educator, born in Churchville, New York, graduate of Northwestern Female College, Evanston, Illinois, 1859. She was president of Evanston College for Ladies and dean of women at Northwestern University. After leaving the university, she helped organize the Chicago Woman's Christian Temperance Union in 1874, and became president of the National Woman's Christian Temperance Union in 1879. In 1891 she was elected president of the World's Woman's Christian Temperance Union.
DonnaAlbino83: Willard turned away from a solid career in education to devote herself to the temperance crusade. For many years she worked for the Temperance Union with no pay, living on money made at speaking engagements. She was instumental in the formation of the Prohibition Party, and was later elected president of the National Council of Women, largely for her belief in women's right to vote.
DonnaAlbino83: Willard is remembered among Methodists for her strong stance in favor of women's participation in the church. She was elected by the Rock River Conference as a lay delegate to General Conference in 1888, but was denied the seat by the General Conference. Along with Anna Oliver, she began the long slow struggle towards women's full participation among Methodists.
DonnaAlbino83: The woman in the center is Frances' mother. The woman on the left is the reason I bought the photo. She is Anna A. Gordon, Mount Holyoke Female Seminary class of 1875. There is precious little about her on the web, but there is this line in one bio of Frances Willard: "In 1877 she met Anna Gordon and asked her to be her personal secretary. Gordon was a great help to Willard for the rest of her life, providing key organizational expertise as well as friendship." Another website calls her a "constant companion" to Frances. Even the antique dealer who had this photo for sale had it identified as "Frances Willard, her mother, and her domestic partner." (!!)
Clara 2012: Wow super accomplished woman
DonnaAlbino83: Clearly, just the existence of this photo demonstrates that Frances saw Anna as a family member. This was taken in Evanston, Illinois, Frances' home town at this stage of her life. They both rest their hands affectionately on Frances' mother; they both appear to think of her as mother, not just Frances. Neither Frances nor Anna ever married men; their commitment was always to each other. Frances died in 1898, and Anna wrote a memorial book for her.
DonnaAlbino83: I like to imagine that they were romantically devoted to each other, too, but we'll probably never really know. In the meantime, though, I'm happy to have this photo of women who made a life together and made a difference in the world around them.
Clara 2012: Wow! No way!
DonnaAlbino83: *laugh* No way what?
Clara 2012: that the antique dealer even had it identified
DonnaAlbino83: It was pretty well known if you knew anything about Frances Willard
DonnaAlbino83: I'm trying to line up one more thing to show, but I'm not ready yet ... anyone have a story they want to share?
ShannonWeber09: Let me know if anyone would like me to talk about what happened as same-sex love and desire started to be pathologized. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer about all of this amazing information, haha
ShannonWeber09: I can wait for you, Donna, since it would be out of chronological order
ShannonWeber09: Actually, since were talking about JM and MW,
ShannonWeber09: Here is some of the stuff JM wrote as same-sex love started to be seen as deviant.
Clara 2012: are you going to mentione President Ham?
DonnaAlbino83: Well, mine is more for the next section, mid-20th century.
ShannonWeber09: JM :
ShannonWeber09: "[Such friendships] cannot be fumigated out of the college because they are brought in from the outside world, from an incomplete or unwholesome home life, or as the result of ill health ... The other night I went into a girl's room, she's a nice girl, too, and she and another girl were in there spooning with the lights turned out ... I've noticed one thing, that when girls are silly that way they begin to get sick ... I don't see what makes girls act that way." [endquote]
ShannonWeber09: This was from her 1908 essay "Unwise College Friendships"
DonnaAlbino83: I'd like to know more about that, Shannon. I know the "Freshman fall madly in love twice a week" song was no longer in the 1920s songbooks, but I don't know if it was because it was now a bad thing to have a crush or not
ShannonWeber09: So interesting, Donna. I would say that that would make total sense
ShannonWeber09: Around 1920 is when women's colleges started really internalizing all the stuff being promoted by sexologists like Havelock Ellis
ShannonWeber09: and clearly this 1908 piece, though not published, indicates a growing awareness of the pathologization of same-sex love/desire as well
ShannonWeber09: Even though the 1908 piece was not published, JM then wrote another piece in 1911 that was published
ShannonWeber09: She wrote a text called A Girl's Student Days and After
ShannonWeber09: here is a quote:
ShannonWeber09: "[t]here is no denying that there is great temptation to violent admirations and attractions in school"
ShannonWeber09: however,
ShannonWeber09: "mpulsive, quickly forced friendships are not wise investments."
ShannonWeber09: impulsive*
ShannonWeber09: not in italics in original - I messed up
ShannonWeber09: She concludes,
ShannonWeber09: "Have a good time but do not swear eternal allegiance in this first year to anybody, however wonderful she may seem."
ShannonWeber09: Also, for a broader historical context, in 1928 The Well of Loneliness came out, which was the first modern lesbian novel, and it was immediately subjected to a censorship investigation and trial
ShannonWeber09: so there were already ideas around prior to '28 that informed people's understandings
DonnaAlbino83: A 1929 study by Katherine B. Davis talked to 1,200 female college graduates about their sex lives and found 50% had "experienced intense emotional relations with other women" and 19.5% had "intense relationships accompanied by mutual masturbation, contact of genital organs, or other expressions recognized as sexual."
DonnaAlbino83: Not exactly a scholarly source - I plucked that from this: http://www.autostraddle.com/10-great-places-to-meet-lesbians-if-you-have-a-time-machine-129252/
ShannonWeber09: It was actually 2,200 women, and it found that women who went to women's colleges had a "slightly higher percentage of attachments, sexual or emotional, to other women, compared to graduates of co-ed colleges"
DonnaAlbino83: But I do see other references to her study online
ShannonWeber09: Yes
Clara 2012: HA I love the article title
ShannonWeber09: I checked out her actual book from the MHC library when I was there last week
ShannonWeber09: so it's at MHC!
DonnaAlbino83: The percentages were wonderful - I had no idea that nearly 20% were being sexual with other women in the 1920s!
ShannonWeber09: The quote I just quoted is from Jennifer Terry's book An American Obsession
ShannonWeber09: Yes yes
ShannonWeber09: At least based on this sample
ShannonWeber09: Also,
ShannonWeber09: Sherrie Inness, who is a literary scholar,
ShannonWeber09: talks in her book called The Lesbian Menace about how various books published in the '20s and '30s further strengthened the stereotype of women's colleges as breeding grounds for lesbianism in popular discussion
ShannonWeber09: She focuses specifically on the books We Sing Diana as well as Wild
ShannonWeber09: both of which were based on Vassar
ShannonWeber09: She writes that these books "promot[e] a view of the women's college as a hotbed of lesbian desire and ... encourag[ed] students to police their own sexual expression to ensure that it d[id] not become full-fledged lesbianism."
DonnaAlbino83: I thought it was interesting that in the letter wars in the Quarterly in the 1980s when the lesbian alumnae network was starting, there was this gem:
DonnaAlbino83: Margaret aus dem Buch Alin '35 remarked in 1988 that "lesbianism existed when I was in college, and presumably in my mother's day, but at least it was private."
ShannonWeber09: Definitely speaks to a long historical trajectory
DonnaAlbino83: That was the earliest reference I had from an alum stating she knew women were getting it on with women in her years at MHC
DonnaAlbino83: I suppose she'd be horrified to know I use her quote, since she was writing AGAINST the lesbian alumnae network
Clara 2012: hahaha
ShannonWeber09: Since we have roughly 15 minutes left, are there particular points in time / topics that others would like addressed?
DonnaAlbino83: The oldest alum we've had in our network was Anna Mary Wells '26 - she was the author of Miss Marks and Miss Woolley
ShannonWeber09: I would also like to ask if any alums or current students have ideas about places on campus where you've seen things physically written down indicating same-sex desire
JenniferSoltis10 was timed out
ShannonWeber09: For example, I will be using writing on the lap boards from the library in my dissertation research
DonnaAlbino83: She once wrote that if she had to declare her sexual identity in college, she would have said lesbian, but there was no visibility for it then
ShannonWeber09: as well as writing on a bathroom door on the first floor of Clapp
ShannonWeber09: but I wanted to know if anyone remembers there being any places where students have/do write down confessions, crushes, etc.
Clara 2012: Even on the back of the bathroom doors... I'm sure I've seen stuff I just can't remember off the top of my head...
Clara 2012: right
DonnaAlbino83: My first gf and I courted through messages on our white boards on our dorm door bulletin boards
ShannonWeber09: Clara, let me know if you think of or find anywhere specific
Clara 2012: Sure thing- I'll shoot a message out to the rugby team message board
ShannonWeber09: Good to know, Donna! I am trying to find places all around campus that still are there. I took a bunch of photos when I was on campus
ShannonWeber09: Thanks, Clara!!!!
ShannonWeber09: Excellent resource, lol
Clara 2012: haha well as I JUST graduated I've still got some pull
ShannonWeber09: I reeeeeally appreciate it!
ShannonWeber09: There used to be stuff written on the windows of the Greenhouse
ShannonWeber09: when I was there
ShannonWeber09: but it's not there anymore
DonnaAlbino83: On an entirely different note, since we're running out of time, I've got another photo to share.
DonnaAlbino83: Did you know one of the buildings at Mount Holyoke was named after a genderqueer?
DonnaAlbino83: Any guesses as to what it is?
ShannonWeber09: I won't answer that because I know what you're about to say, haha
Clara 2012: Is it a dorm or academic building?
ShannonWeber09: And also, did this person identify as gender-variant in some way?
DonnaAlbino83: So I can't call on you even though you're wildly raising your hand, is that it?
ShannonWeber09: Yes
DonnaAlbino83: I asked Jean Grossholtz about it, but all she'd say is yes, the photos were typical, and whenever she saw this person, they were always in suit coat and fedora
DonnaAlbino83: Clara: neither. It is the health center!
DonnaAlbino83: Dr. Pattie Groves joined the faculty in 1927. I have two photo albums with snapshots from those first few years; they were both kept by students in the class of 1934. On the basis of these early photos, it certainly appeared Dr. Groves was very unconventional.
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DonnaAlbino83: http://www.mtholyoke.com/pcsite/photos/rgreen/ss56.jpeg
DonnaAlbino83: (underneath) "Feb. 5. - 1932. Dr. Pattie with pitcher of cream for kittens"
DonnaAlbino83: Let me just say that outfit is very atypical of the time. If you saw other women from that time period, they'd be in long skirts and much more feminine tops.
Clara 2012: That is quite a photo
DonnaAlbino83: A more recent photo I found was much more convincing that Dr. Groves was genderqueer. The book where I found the photo is called "Profile." It's a softcover book of 94 pages that was published in 1960, and has the photos and bios for all the faculty and administration people at Mount Holyoke.
JenniferSoltis10: And since we're about to wrap up, I'll finally say hi. I'm trying to finish editing a proposal right now, but I've enjoyed the bits I was able to read. Wonderful stories, thanks to all of you.
DonnaAlbino83: http://www.mtholyoke.com/lj/Pattie.jpg
DonnaAlbino83: Dr. Pattie retired in 1960, and Jean Grossholtz started in 1962, but Dr. Pattie was still living in the area and Jean has very strong memories of the fedora and suit coat.
Clara 2012: Are those the only two photos you've found?
ShannonWeber09: Thanks for joining us, Jennifer!!
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Clara 2012: I found one more: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwq9esPs7g1r52hb5o1_400.jpg
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DonnaAlbino83: There are a few other snapshots of Dr. Pattie from the 1930s that look similar to the snapshot with the pitcher, but not as clear. I'm sure the Archives has more
DonnaAlbino83: Yes, that's one of the ones I have in the same photo album
DonnaAlbino83: But since Dr. Pattie is leaning over the dog, it's tough to see the clothing
DonnaAlbino83: One more story to share I just found recently:
ShannonWeber09: Her haircut is very clear in the one with the dog
ShannonWeber09: All so very interesting
DonnaAlbino83: Connie Converse x1946 was outspoken, brave and wildly independent. It surprised no one when Connie matriculated at her mother and grandmother's alma mater, Mount Holyoke. But nobody could believe it when she dropped out. She moved to Greenwich Village and poured herself into her music. She had some brief fame, including a chance to play a few tunes on Walter Cronkite's "CBS Morning Show" in 1954. But she never made it big. In the summer of 1974, just before her 50th birthday, she left some letters for her family and friends, packed up her car and drove away. It was the last time anyone in her family ever saw or heard from her. In 2010, the last surviving member of her family, her brother, spoke about her to The Awl, a New York City-based website. He never knew her to have a suitor, and he doesn't know if she was a lesbian, although it's something he's consider more and more as time has passed.
DonnaAlbino83: Read the full story here: http://www.theawl.com/2010/08/the-story-of-connie-converse
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ShannonWeber09: Thanks so much for joining us, everyone!! We will get the video of my talk up ASAP so anyone who wants to can see it.
ShannonWeber09: I have to go help with dinner, but feel free to stay in the room and talk more if you want to
ShannonWeber09: It was amazing to be able to have this venue. And Donna, I'm serious about the publishing idea if you're up for it at some point!
EvelynWright94: Thanks so much, Shannon and Donna!
EvelynWright94: And congratulations on the fellowship, Shannon! How exciting!!
ShannonWeber09: Thank you, Evelyn!!! I feel very fortunate. Thank you for your interest!
ShannonWeber09: Have a lovely night and I look forward to seeing the chat transcript
MaryMcClintock78: thanks, Donna and Shannon, for all that you do!
ShannonWeber09: Thanks, Mary! Thanks for all your input and your sharing of memories.
Clara 2012: Goodnight!
DonnaAlbino83: Anyone have any other stories to share? Or should I close the chatroom?
berkeleydyke: I am late for the conversation. Will you have more of these soon?
DonnaAlbino83: We can schedule chats as often as we have good ideas to chat about! What would you like to see us chat about in the future?
Clara 2012: Anything about Gender theories/history would be great. maybe even expanding this kind of talk to the seven sisters history instead of just moho
DonnaAlbino83: Would you want to be the host of a chat, Clara?
Clara 2012: It could be a fun idea for sure! I'd need to prep a bit definitely and fit it into my work schedule
DonnaAlbino83: What could be the topic?
Clara 2012: Why don't you give me your emails and I could try to shoot you some ideas in the next 24 hrs?
Clara 2012: email*
DonnaAlbino83: dalbino83 at yahoo dot com
Clara 2012: great thanks!
Clara 2012: just expect one from clara.lefton@gmail.com
DonnaAlbino83: I think having decade chats would be interesting too, like 1980s or 1990s or 2000s or something like that. There are so many stories we didn't even touch on tonight, like the uprising in 1997 that led to the Marks House
DonnaAlbino83: Maybe if we just focused on one small window of time we could have some deeper memories
DonnaAlbino83: OK, will close the chat room now. Thanks for attending, everyone!
JenniferSoltis10: I heard rumors of a bit of a femme revolution on campus within the last year or so. I'd be interested to hear some recent perspectives on how campus ideas of what visibly "gay enough" looks like.
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DonnaAlbino83: Yes, there's a new femme group on campus - can't recall exact name, but I'm at least vaguely aware of it
Clara 2012: I know the girl who is the head of it so I could talk with her about why she felt it was necessary etc
DonnaAlbino83: Thanks, Jennifer - that is good food for thought! We will definitely have more chats this year.
Clara 2012: Great speaking with everyone!
DonnaAlbino83: Bye!